IE dehanced?

EDLIN sucked, LOL.
PC-Write was a heck of a lot better. Heck, even EDIT was a lot better.


Colin Barnhorst wrote:
> I miss Edlin.
>
> "Shenan Stanley" <newshelper DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:OSOj%2300dIHA.4696@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Vern Linard wrote:
>>> things change.. some for better some for worse
>>>
>>> IE and Vista are horrid, made by people that should be hanged for
>>> destroying all logic and usablitity in UI.
>>> Case closed
>>
>> IYHO
>>
>>
>> There are still people who prefer things from Windows 3.11 for
>> Workgroups.
>> Some still prefer OS 9 over OS X. Some even long for the DOS and
>> WordPerfect 5 days...
>>
>> --
>> Shenan Stanley
>> MS-MVP
>> --
>> How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

davegb wrote:
> On Feb 24, 6:25 pm, "Shenan Stanley" <newshel... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> Vern Linard wrote:
>>> things change.. some for better some for worse
>>
>>> IE and Vista are horrid, made by people that should be hanged for
>>> destroying all logic and usablitity in UI.
>>> Case closed
>>
>> IYHO
>>
>>
>> There are still people who prefer things from Windows 3.11 for
>> Workgroups.
>> Some still prefer OS 9 over OS X. Some even long for the DOS and
>> WordPerfect 5 days...
>>
>> --
>> Shenan Stanley
>> MS-MVP
> Sometimes, we long for things the way they were for emotional,
> nostalgic reasons. I don't have such feelings about software.
> Wordperfect was a vastly superior word processor to Word, for at least
> 2 reasons. First, it had simple, straightforward ways of setting tabs
> and margins and indents, something I still long for. After many years
> of playing with Word's mysterious margin/tab/indent tool, I still have
> no idea how it works or what I'll get when I manipulate it, and I
> still, most of the time, can't get it to do what I want. If I were the
> only person with this experience, I'd take the blame. But I'm not.
> Second, Wordperfect's "Reveal Codes" view, in which you could see
> every formatting code in the document and correct them as needed.
> Figuring out what exactly is causing one paragraph to behave one way
> and another to behave another way is still often impossible in Word.
> This is NOT a nostalgic thing at all. Simple usability features that
> Word has never approached.
> Longing for DOS - that's pure masochism!

The right tool for the right occasion. But some (granted, only a few)
things work better or simpler in DOS (such as renaming a bunch of files with
wildcards, deleting an index.dat file (which can't be done in windows), and
a few other goodies)
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

On Feb 25, 1:46 am, "Bill in Co." <not_really_h... RemoveThis @earthlink.net>
wrote:
> davegb wrote:
> > On Feb 24, 6:25 pm, "Shenan Stanley" <newshel... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Vern Linard wrote:
> >>> things change.. some for better some for worse
>
> >>> IE and Vista are horrid, made by people that should be hanged for
> >>> destroying all logic and usablitity in UI.
> >>> Case closed
>
> >> IYHO
> >>
>
> >> There are still people who prefer things from Windows 3.11 for
> >> Workgroups.
> >> Some still prefer OS 9 over OS X. Some even long for the DOS and
> >> WordPerfect 5 days...
>
> >> --
> >> Shenan Stanley
> >> MS-MVP
> > Sometimes, we long for things the way they were for emotional,
> > nostalgic reasons. I don't have such feelings about software.
> > Wordperfect was a vastly superior word processor to Word, for at least
> > 2 reasons. First, it had simple, straightforward ways of setting tabs
> > and margins and indents, something I still long for. After many years
> > of playing with Word's mysterious margin/tab/indent tool, I still have
> > no idea how it works or what I'll get when I manipulate it, and I
> > still, most of the time, can't get it to do what I want. If I were the
> > only person with this experience, I'd take the blame. But I'm not.
> > Second, Wordperfect's "Reveal Codes" view, in which you could see
> > every formatting code in the document and correct them as needed.
> > Figuring out what exactly is causing one paragraph to behave one way
> > and another to behave another way is still often impossible in Word.
> > This is NOT a nostalgic thing at all. Simple usability features that
> > Word has never approached.
> > Longing for DOS - that's pure masochism!
>
> The right tool for the right occasion.    But some (granted, only a few)
> things work better or simpler in DOS (such as renaming a bunch of files with
> wildcards, deleting an index.dat file (which can't be done in windows), and
> a few other goodies)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No doubt. But missing a few features is not the same as "longing for".
Given all the advantages of a GUI, I've never misssed DOS. And for
most those things you miss, you can find those little, small developer
apps that work so well.
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

How would YOU design vista and media player?
"Vern Linard" <VernLinard DeleteThis @aol.ca> wrote in message
news:47c1c30f@newsgate.x-privat.org...
> the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed vista
> and windows media player
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

On Feb 25, 1:27 pm, "Unknown" <unkn... DeleteThis @unknown.kom> wrote:
> How would YOU design vista and media player?"Vern Linard" <VernLin... DeleteThis @aol.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:47c1c30f@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>
>
>
> > the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed vista
> > and windows media player- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'd start by putting "Print" in the same place, or somewhere very like
it. I haven't had the chance to work with Vista yet, but a friend told
me it took her 10 min to find "Print". Is that progress?
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

On Feb 26, 1:08 pm, "Unknown" <unkn... DeleteThis @unknown.kom> wrote:
> The severe critics of an operating system ( or any program for that matter )
> are always from  those that have never done any programming."davegb" <daveg... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
>
I've done just enough programming to know how difficult it can be, and
to know that the number one mistake made in most programming efforts
is not involving end users early and often. Frequently, programmers
have no idea how the program is used by the actual end users, who are
considered far too ignorant to have an intelligent opinion about the
user interface. This goes all the way back to Brooks (Mythical
Manmonth) and is supported by numerous other experts in the software
development field (i.e., Stephen Campbell, et. al.) End users have
just as much right to criticize software as developers, because we
have to use what they produce. This is akin to saying I can't complain
about my car, with the gear shift in the back seat, because I don't
design cars!

> news:c2f11e90-2846-499f-9687-040586b5a4a9@60g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 25, 1:27 pm, "Unknown" <unkn... DeleteThis @unknown.kom> wrote:
>
> > How would YOU design vista and media player?"Vern Linard"
> > <VernLin... DeleteThis @aol.ca> wrote in message
>
> >news:47c1c30f@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>
> > > the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed vista
> > > and windows media player- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'd start by putting "Print" in the same place, or somewhere very like
> it. I haven't had the chance to work with Vista yet, but a friend told
> me it took her 10 min to find "Print". Is that progress?
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

On Feb 26, 1:39 pm, "Shenan Stanley" <newshel....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snipped>
> Entire Thread Archived Indefinitely:http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/bro...
>
> Vern Linard wrote:
> > the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed
> > vista and windows media player
> Unknown wrote:
> > How would YOU design vista and media player?
> davegb wrote:
> > I'd start by putting "Print" in the same place, or somewhere very
> > like it. I haven't had the chance to work with Vista yet, but a friend
> > told me it took her 10 min to find "Print". Is that progress?
>
> "Print"... In Windows Vista?  In Windows Media Player?
> Unsure what you mean if you did not make a mistake or your friend does not
> know the difference between Office and Windows.
>
In an app in Windoze Vista, I assume. I wasn't there at the time. You
can make fun of an "average" user, but they're a lot of them out there
and they don't need M$ screwing them around just to make another few
billion.

> Or are you talking about Microsoft Office 2007?  I know many people who have
> had trouble with that.  They sometimes feel a little sheepish when you show
> them the built in help and type in "how do I print"...  I have started -
> when giving people Office 2007 for the first time - showing them the ribbon,
> the help and telling them, "If you cannot find it - click on the big ball in
> the top left corner..."
>
Thanks for making my point. Why, at this point in the development of
software, would an experienced Windoze user have to go to the Help
screen to find out how to print? Ridiculous! Of course, we're all
sheepish when someone shows us something that's apparently easy to do
when they know how to do it.

> Click the Microsoft Office Button, and then click Print.
>   *Important* If you don't see the Microsoft Office Button,
>     click Print on the File menu.
>    Keyboard shortcut: To display the Print dialog box, press
>     CTRL+P.
>
> And an inability to locate something in a new product - that should not be
> equated to a lack of progress.  There are people out there, by now, that
> have ONLY used Office 2007.  If you were to give them Office 2003 - they
> would have a difficult time finding things.
>
> In addition - might I suggest these:
>
> - The new look in familiar programs of the 2007 Microsoft Office system
>  http://office.microsoft.com/training/training.aspx?AssetID=RC10148229....
>
> - Wondering where your favorite Office 2003 commands are located in the new
> 2007 Office system interface?
>  http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/training/HA102295841033.aspx?pid=CL....
>
> --
> Shenan Stanley
>      MS-MVP
> --
> How To Ask Questions The Smart Wayhttp://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

If there is significant ease of use improvement by changing an
established software procedure, then, by all means, go ahead. But when
a couple of hundred million users can't figure out how to do something
they've know how to do for years so that a couple of million new users
can find it easier, that's going backward. Developers SHOULD consider
which is the greater good, rather than which will justify them selling
yet another upgrade to line their pockets, without offering any real
advantaqe over the old system. Most of the changes I've seen in the
last few versions of Windoze and Orifice have been moving things
around to new places where they're no easier or harder to find for a
newbie, but most definitely harder to find for the experienced users.
That is not progress, that's marketing.
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

The severe critics of an operating system ( or any program for that matter )
are always from those that have never done any programming.
"davegb" <davegbel DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c2f11e90-2846-499f-9687-040586b5a4a9@60g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 25, 1:27 pm, "Unknown" <unkn... DeleteThis @unknown.kom> wrote:
> How would YOU design vista and media player?"Vern Linard"
> <VernLin... DeleteThis @aol.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:47c1c30f@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>
>
>
> > the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed vista
> > and windows media player- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'd start by putting "Print" in the same place, or somewhere very like
it. I haven't had the chance to work with Vista yet, but a friend told
me it took her 10 min to find "Print". Is that progress?
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

<snipped>
Entire Thread Archived Indefinitely:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/brow...frm/thr



Vern Linard wrote:
> the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed
> vista and windows media player

Unknown wrote:
> How would YOU design vista and media player?

davegb wrote:
> I'd start by putting "Print" in the same place, or somewhere very
> like it. I haven't had the chance to work with Vista yet, but a friend
> told me it took her 10 min to find "Print". Is that progress?

"Print"... In Windows Vista? In Windows Media Player?
Unsure what you mean if you did not make a mistake or your friend does not
know the difference between Office and Windows.

Or are you talking about Microsoft Office 2007? I know many people who have
had trouble with that. They sometimes feel a little sheepish when you show
them the built in help and type in "how do I print"... I have started -
when giving people Office 2007 for the first time - showing them the ribbon,
the help and telling them, "If you cannot find it - click on the big ball in
the top left corner..."

Click the Microsoft Office Button, and then click Print.
*Important* If you don't see the Microsoft Office Button,
click Print on the File menu.
Keyboard shortcut: To display the Print dialog box, press
CTRL+P.

And an inability to locate something in a new product - that should not be
equated to a lack of progress. There are people out there, by now, that
have ONLY used Office 2007. If you were to give them Office 2003 - they
would have a difficult time finding things.

In addition - might I suggest these:

- The new look in familiar programs of the 2007 Microsoft Office system
http://office.microsoft.com/training/training.aspx?AssetID=RC101482291033

- Wondering where your favorite Office 2003 commands are located in the new
2007 Office system interface?
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/training/HA102295841033.aspx?pid=CL1...3320103

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

On Feb 26, 5:37 pm, davegb <daveg... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> > "Print"... In Windows Vista? In Windows Media Player?
> > Unsure what you mean if you did not make a mistake or your friend does not
> > know the difference between Office and Windows.
>
> In an app in Windoze Vista, I assume. I wasn't there at the time. You
> can make fun of an "average" user, but they're a lot of them out there
> and they don't need M$ screwing them around just to make another few
> billion.

Vista doesn't rearrange the function location in existing apps.

> Thanks for making my point. Why, at this point in the development of
> software, would an experienced Windoze user have to go to the Help
> screen to find out how to print? Ridiculous! Of course, we're all
> sheepish when someone shows us something that's apparently easy to do
> when they know how to do it.


> If there is significant ease of use improvement by changing an
> established software procedure, then, by all means, go ahead. But when
> a couple of hundred million users can't figure out how to do something
> they've know how to do for years so that a couple of million new users
> can find it easier, that's going backward. Developers SHOULD consider
> which is the greater good, rather than which will justify them selling
> yet another upgrade to line their pockets, without offering any real
> advantaqe over the old system. Most of the changes I've seen in the
> last few versions of Windoze and Orifice have been moving things
> around to new places where they're no easier or harder to find for a
> newbie, but most definitely harder to find for the experienced users.
> That is not progress, that's marketing.

I've never used the new office extensively, but many experienced users
I've talked to love the new layout once they get their head around it.
Once they know where everything is they find it easier to navigate
around than the old interface, so it's not just new users they are
catering to. Microsoft did leave the existing keyboard shortcuts which
experienced users are used to using. Yes it's a bit of a shock when
Microsoft moved "Print" after it's been at the same place in Word for
over a decade, but maybe it actually is better.

Personally I'm sticking with Office 2003 for now because I don't see
any major must have features in 2007 worth the money, plus I don't
like the performance hit. With the free 2003<-->2007 converters my
office isn't obsolete yet so I'm not worrying too much about it.
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced? 

Have you ever written a complex program that satisfied 100% of the users?
Get real!
"davegb" <davegbel.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:e5a39b99-a66f-4143-9a18-00cf166a7e39@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 26, 1:08 pm, "Unknown" <unkn....TakeThisOut@unknown.kom> wrote:
> The severe critics of an operating system ( or any program for that
> matter )
> are always from those that have never done any programming."davegb"
> <daveg....TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
I've done just enough programming to know how difficult it can be, and
to know that the number one mistake made in most programming efforts
is not involving end users early and often. Frequently, programmers
have no idea how the program is used by the actual end users, who are
considered far too ignorant to have an intelligent opinion about the
user interface. This goes all the way back to Brooks (Mythical
Manmonth) and is supported by numerous other experts in the software
development field (i.e., Stephen Campbell, et. al.) End users have
just as much right to criticize software as developers, because we
have to use what they produce. This is akin to saying I can't complain
about my car, with the gear shift in the back seat, because I don't
design cars!

> news:c2f11e90-2846-499f-9687-040586b5a4a9@60g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 25, 1:27 pm, "Unknown" <unkn....TakeThisOut@unknown.kom> wrote:
>
> > How would YOU design vista and media player?"Vern Linard"
> > <VernLin....TakeThisOut@aol.ca> wrote in message
>
> >news:47c1c30f@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>
> > > the interface was made by idiots, the same idiots that designed vista
> > > and windows media player- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'd start by putting "Print" in the same place, or somewhere very like
> it. I haven't had the chance to work with Vista yet, but a friend told
> me it took her 10 min to find "Print". Is that progress?
 >> Stay informed about: IE dehanced?